Welcome to the Saint Heron Library, a literary center dedicated to students, artists, creatives and general book/literature enthusiasts interested in exploring and studying the breadth of artistic expression. Our focus is to propel the advancement of education, knowledge production, creative inspiration and skill development through culturally relevant Black and Brown literary works. Offered seasonally with book selections by guest curators, this new collection highlights renowned and modern artists practicing within various themes of poetry, visual art, critical thought, design and much more. These works can be borrowed by readers for 45-days, free of costs to our U.S. based community.
00-01
AZUREST BLUE: The Life and Legacy of Amaza Lee Meredith
Saint Heron
Research Journal
00-02
AZUREST BLUE: The Life and Legacy of Amaza Lee Meredith
Saint Heron
Research Journal
00-03
AZUREST BLUE: The Life and Legacy of Amaza Lee Meredith
Saint Heron
Research Journal
00-04
AZUREST BLUE: The Life and Legacy of Amaza Lee Meredith
Saint Heron
Research Journal
00-05
A Daughter's Geography
Ntozake Shange
Poetry
00-06
American Negro Art
Cedric Dover
Art Catalogue
00-07
An Ordinary Woman
Lucille Clifton
Poetry
00-08
Art at the Edge, Houston Cownwill
Susan Krane
Art
00-09
Between the Lines
Benny Andrews
Visual Art / Essays
00-10
Black Artists on Art Vol. 1
Ruth G. Waddy
Art Catalogue
00-11
Black Artists on Art Vol. 2
Ruth G. Waddy
Art Catalogue
00-12
Black Dance
Edward Thorpe
Arts & Photography
00-13
Black Gods of the Metropolis
Arthur Huff Fauset
Non-Fiction / History
00-14
Black Like Me
Fred Wilson
Exhibition Catalogue
00-15
Black Woman Sorrow
Rosa Bogar
Poetry
00-16
Bloodchild and Other Stories
Octavia E. Butler
Sci-Fi
00-17
Cap Wigington: An Architectural Legacy in Ice and Stone
David Vassar Taylor & Paul Clifford Larson
Monograph
00-18
Catgut - The Opera
Rhea Dillon
Art & Photography
00-19
Chase-Riboud
Barbara Chase-Riboud
Exhibition Catalogue
00-20
Children Coming Home
Gwendolyn Brooks
Poetry
00-21
Civil Wars
June Jordan
Anthology
00-22
Clarion Issue I
Kandis Williams & 52 Walker
Arts & Photography
00-23
Clay's Ark
Octavia Butler
Science Fiction
00-24
Coal
Audre Lorde
Poetry
00-25
Dark Waters: Vol. 3 No. 1
Colleen J. McElroy (Editor)
African-American Literary Journal
00-26
Dimensions Of Black
Jehanne Teilhet-Fisk
Exhibition Catalogue
00-27
Earthquakes and Sun Rise Missions: Poetry and Essays of Black Renewal
Haki R Mahubuti
Poetry / Essay
00-28
Eldorado Ballroom 2023 Vol. 1
Saint Heron Press
Art Catalogue
00-29
Embryo
Quincy Troupe
Poetry
00-30
Fifth Sunday
Rita Dove
Poetry / Fiction
00-31
Flying Piranha
Ted Joans and Joyce Mansour
Poetry
00-32
Forty Years of Printmaking: A Retrospective, 1948-1988
Warrington Colescott
Exhibition Catalogue
00-33
Gary Simmons: Ghost House
Gary Simmons, Avery F. Gordon & Louis Grachos
Installation Art / Essay
00-34
In Our Terribleness
Imamu Amiri Baraka & Fundi
Prose Poetry
00-35
Judith Jamison: Aspects of a Dancer
Olga Maynard
Biography
00-36
Julian Abele: Architect and the Beaux Arts
Dreck Spurlock Wilson
Non-Fiction / History
00-37
Just Us
Claudia Rankine
Poetry
00-38
KICK: Black, Gay & Fierce Urban Culture
Miscellaneous
Zine
00-39
LA TETE
Julianna Free
Prose Poetry / Illustration / Photography
00-40
Left of Karl Marx
Carol Boyce Davies
Political
00-41
Lumumba ou l'Afrique frustrée
Luiz Lopez Alvarez
Essay
00-42
Mad at Miles: A Black Woman's Guide to Truth
Pearl Cleage
Non-Fiction
00-43
Mad Dog Black Lady
Wanda Coleman
Poetry
00-44
Madam Zenobia's Space Age Lucky Eleven Dream and Astrology Book
Madam Zenobia
Astrology / Numerology
00-45
Maren Hassinger, 1972-1991
Maren Hassinger
Exhibition Catalogue
00-46
Meteor In A Black Hat
Bob Thompson
Exhibition Catalogue
00-47
Michael in Black
Nicole Miller
Monograph / Arts & Photography
00-48
My One Good Nerve
Ruby Dee
Short Stories / Essays
00-49
Native in a Strange Land
Wanda Coleman
Non-Fiction
00-50
No Matter Where You Travel, You Still Be Black
Houston A. Baker
Poetry
00-51
No Pain Like This Body
Harold Sonny Ladoo
Fiction
00-52
Of Tulips and Shadows
Dewey Crumpler
Exhibition Catalogue
00-53
Otán Iyebiyé: Las Piedras Preciosas
Lydia Cabrera
Afro-Cuban Folklore
00-54
Poems From Prison
Etheridge Knight
Poetry
00-55
Public and Personal
Martin Puryear
Exhibition Catalogue
00-56
Adrian Piper: Reflections 1967-1987
Adrian Piper
Exhibition Catalogue
00-57
Revolution In Guinea: An African People's Struggle
Colleen J. McElroy
African-American Literary Journal
00-58
Shakespeare in Harlem
Langston Hughes
Poetry
00-59
Spell #7
Ntozake Shange
Choreopoem
00-60
The Architectural Legacy of Wallace A. Rayfield: Pioneer Black Architect of Birmingham, Alabama
Allen R. Durough (Author)
Biography
00-61
The Art of Henry O. Tanner
Henry Ossawa Tanner
Exhibition Catalogue
00-62
The Black Unicorn
Audre Lorde
Poetry
00-63
The Clearing and Beyond
May Miller
Poetry
00-64
The Friendliest Black Artist in America
William Pope.L
Arts & Photography
00-65
The Meeting Point
Austin Clarke
Psychological Fiction
00-66
The Soft Voice of the Serpent
Nadine Gordimer
Fiction
00-67
The Theme is Blackness
Ed Bullins
Drama
00-68
The Voices of Negritude
Julio Finn
Drama
00-69
Trophy Room
William Pope.L
Exhibition Catalogue
Solange Knowles & Shantel Aurora in Conversation: Azurest Blue – The Life & Legacy of Amaza Lee Meredith
What began in 2020 as a research project became a form of communion: Black women together, immersed in the echoes of an ancestor through the blueprints, notes and love letters, and personal scrapbooks in her archive. This conversation between Solange Knowles and Shantel Aurora contextualizes that in reflections on the book’s creative and research processes. Delayed in part by a global pandemic, they discuss how timely the book’s official release into the world reflects the patience, wonder, and care that directly aligns with Meredith’s multi-faceted life and career.
Created, designed and produced entirely in-house through Saint Heron Press, this publication also features written contributions from artist Ferren Gipson, poet Briona Simone Jones, architect Pascale Sablan, historian Jerald “Coop” Cooper, and writer/editor Shantel Aurora. Azurest Blue: The Life and Legacy of Amaza Lee Meredith gathers the echoes and relays them in a collection of notes passed between generations.
Shantel Aurora:
When you first mentioned this project surrounding Amaza Lee Meredith to the team, it was February 2020. And when we first started actually researching, there was nothing on Google about this woman, like, at all, and now there's so much. But I think the pace at which we worked at this was so important. Now that the book is finally here, how do you feel?
Solange Knowles:
I feel like the spirit of Amaza is really present right now and sort of demanding that resurrection. Timing is so important, and I think that we as a team try to be really, really thoughtful and intentional about timing. I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that we all have our personal lives. You and I are both mothers. We balance other jobs and other projects. And I think one of the really beautiful things, so to speak, when you talk about pace, is sort of doing that alongside the research of Amaza’s life and seeing how many different phases and evolutions she had. It echoed, sort of, what evolutions we all kind of personally had starting from before the pandemic until now. So it feels very aligned, very cosmic. And I think in the spirit of her name really being at the forefront of so many conversations right now, it just feels like an honor to add to that. And how do you feel?
SA:
I think I'm gonna weep when this is actually, finally announced to the public. It feels like each writer had a personal conversation with Amaza’s spirit through the materials, and that's what makes this book so unique. I feel like if we’d time traveled and come back — each saying, in our own words what we took from the conversations we had with her about the specific evolutions of her life, that this is a record of that.
Azurest Blue honors her in a way that I feel like she would be so grateful to see, but I also feel like she would know she’s been that girl. Like she did all the things. And even hearing you talk about us juggling all of these different parts of our lives, I connect that to Amaza too because building her home, Azurest South, was done while she was teaching in college and sort of building the arts department there at Virginia state. So, I feel very connected to the work and just really proud of it. I really think I'm gonna cry.
SK:
I probably will too, and I think we're allowed to. I think we've grown very, very close to her through this work. I also think that the sort of homecoming of her story, being able to have the potential to connect with so many people who dream big — that's why in the foreword, when I was writing my Editor's Note, I talked about anyone who wants to build a house with their own hands. I think it's just so aspirational to be a Black woman and to think about a Black woman more than 50 years prior to our existence already sort of paving that way for us, and walking that walk, and talking that talk, I think it's going to resonate with so many people. It's such a prime time in the space of arts and culture to uplift the story of a Black woman architect and designer. There's a curiosity and interest right now in design and architecture, so to be able to contextualize that this incredible Black woman was self taught and able to have such a modernist futurist lens on the way she saw the world and all of the different facets of that, implementing through the architecture, it's so timely.
SA:
Can you talk a little about how the research or editing process shifted how you understood Amaza and her creative practice, and how that connects with you being a multidisciplinary artist?
SK:
One of the things that I really, really connected with is this idea of having an idea, and then building all of the landscape that surrounds it. To hear a woman say, “okay, not only does Virginia State need to have this art department, I'm going to create the curriculum. I'm going to create the department. I'm going to design the flyer and the materials that give this messaging. I'm also going to design the actual building and build it, and I'm going to build a home for me and my partner” — sort of blurring the lines of life is art and the imagination to be so limitless, and the way that an idea can come to life is truly the woman that I aspire to be and to reflect. It's always such an honor when people share with me how they feel like my own aspirations across mediums inspire them because it feels very natural for me. It doesn't feel like necessarily a journey I intended to go on. I see sort of the domino effect of how one limitation sort of opens a new one and expression. So it's like, I dance and I choreograph because there's things that I can't emote with my voice, that can only come from my knees and my feet. To see that reflected so far beyond my imagination, it just gives me fuel to continue that path and to also create recognition.
I get really frustrated in these conversations of “who did it first,” the competitiveness that can permeate from the outside world amongst Black women and creators in general. I always like to point to the fact that it’s nothing new under the sun that hasn't been done by a Black woman. An outstanding Black woman. This was a woman in the ‘20s and ‘30s who knew no bounds. It just gives me the fuel, especially as I transition now into the academic space, to know what her journey encompassed, and how much of a reflection that is on my own. I feel less alone and more supported by her spirit. And that research, being able to see the records of that, was really fascinating. But to also see the records of her personal love story, and her love story to herself, to her partner, that devotion. Even carrying out her father's legacy as a self taught architect. There's so many love stories in this book and it's really cool to see the width of that.
I appreciate your tenacity, going back and looking deeper and digging deeper and being limitless in your own research. I'd love for you to talk through, especially in the wake of the pandemic, challenges that we had, what that process was like for you.
SA:
It was a challenge because I just wanted to make sure we did right by her. It’s difficult to sort of balance the intimacy of all we got to come into contact with and how publishing that sort of opens up her world, but through our view. So, it was a challenge because the pandemic blocked us from accessing Amaza’s papers for so long. Campuses were operating remotely during the bulk of this time and I wanted to make sure that she was honored, wholly.
Coming so close to all the materials she preserved and kept made this project so personal for me. And I’m grateful you had the team stick with this and kept us in touch with VSU for the right time to get down there and dive into her archives because I knew nothing about architecture when you first mentioned this. But that in itself opened my world to how male dominated the architectural space is, but it also just made me pay so much more attention to the physical world around me and who made what.
So I feel like through Amaza’s spirit, I sort of became more present today. So because it's made such a tremendous impact on me, I feel like it's going to make that same impact on other people who are just coming into not only Black women in architecture, but architecture in general like me. I feel so proud of this. And I really do feel like she would too. Because it feels like I personally know her now. You know?
SK:
I think we all feel that, yeah. I think everybody has such a unique connection to the parts of her that sort of resonate within themselves the most, and that's what I really love about the book as well because through the contributors, there's unique perspectives that connect with all of these different facets for her life —
SA:
And it's so fly because we have Pascale, a Black woman architect who wrote about Amaza’s architectural genius through her lens, Briona, who's already an amazing lesbian poet and writer sharing Amaza and Edna’s love story through her lens. The book really touches on so much of this multifaceted woman’s life with personal connection. That's so fly.
SK:
Yeah, that was very intentional. When I learned more and began deepening my own research of her life, there was this multiplicity that made it important to assign writers who could really personalize the interpretation of that story, and who were sort of experts in that field, of what she embodied.
So thinking about the conversations in response to her blueprints, being able to pair that with Pascale's knowledge was so fascinating because in my own experience with design, I'm able to look at a blueprint and interpret what that looks like. But to have that kind of expertise and that type of interpretation, I thought was so special. Her observation of even blueprints that didn't come to life and how multi-dimensional they were. By design, having all of these unique voices really paint a full picture of her was always the point.
SA:
Tell me a little bit about how you even came across Amaza and her work.
SK:
I was really taking an interest in Black architects around 2019 and I would just search for different Black architects throughout history. When I came across her name, I couldn't really find anything on her but I stored it in my memory bank. Then, T Magazine did a story on Sag Harbor and the history of the community being rooted in Black families. They briefly mentioned Amaza and I thought “that name sounds really familiar.” So I went back and looked at my notes, and I put two and two together that this was the same woman. And that was really interesting to me, because I only knew her from my previous search looking for Black women architects. To see her in this new context, as a developer of this rich, storied neighborhood, initially I wasn't even sure if it could be the same person. I looked further into it and realized it was the same person. I thought, wow, what does it mean to actually build a home, but to also say, I want to take this further, and I actually want to develop an entire neighborhood for us to have leisure and access to nature and safety and community and connection and legacy, and how truly bold it was at that time, especially to be led by a Black woman. I thought, well if she did that, what else did she do that I don't know about? Just thinking about how brave she had to be during that time. And so that was what piqued my curiosity is those two intersections meeting together.
And as we know, I'm a big Donald Judd fan and his philosophies on the land and the space that surrounds the work being as imminent as the work itself. There have been a lot of examples of that throughout history, in terms of Black artists who define the space around the work, but few of those examples are at the forefront, coming from Black women that early on. So when I think about Julia Perry or Mary Lou Williams, I feel like Amaza sits right there too. That was what piqued my interest. And at the time, I was struggling to find information about her — and this is how it always works with Saint Heron. Always a need and a frustration and a problem; and that always plants the seed to say, well, if somebody else hasn't done it, we have to do it, because we need answers, we have questions. I have questions that need answers. And I feel so incredibly lucky to have y'all as a team to help facilitate those answers and to be as curious as I am. It's been an incredible journey.
SA:
I want to talk a little bit about Azurest. First of all, it’s my new favorite color, Azurest Blue. But because we talk so much about all the things she did do, I think it's important to acknowledge the importance of rest and respite to her. Even through her home, how she had certain spaces that were designated for, maybe studio work, and then another for peace. In her scrapbook, she wrote like “peace of mind,” “window seat,” and things like that under photographs of certain spaces in the home. You can tell rest was necessary for her. To think about how she prioritized rest even among all the work she did, when it was likely twice as hard without all the access we have now, it’s incredible.
SK:
It's hard to imagine, right? She fulfills so many roles and also in so many geographical spaces, sort of tracking her journey from Virginia to New York to Harlem, then Sag Harbor, and she briefly lived in Brooklyn as well, that really resonates with me. Also the boudoir and having sort of a designated space built in and designed even for her partner to rest. I think that as I expand and deepen in all of my practices, I recognize how urgent it is to have time where the brain and the mind is at rest, and I really admire her building that into her practice in a physical way, a spiritual way, and a philosophical way. I haven't mastered that yet, but through learning about her story and the intentional designation of rest, you're absolutely right. There's something very reflective in that, that I think we all could learn from her.
SA:
She even went as far as to build this beach community specifically for that. For vacation homes, for Black people to be able to get away and just take a breather, like you said, among community. She wanted us all to know rest.
SK:
I agree. One of the things that I have been revisiting quite a bit is her letter to Dr. Edgar Allan Toppin, who was the dean at Virginia State after her retirement. The letter has all these really, really interesting notes and reflections, but I love the sense of humor that you got to witness. That's one of my favorite pages in the book I've been really living with because being able to have that self-awareness to literally list your own embarrassing moments, and funniest experiences — It's so humanizing. You could become almost intimidated by her brilliance.
So that was a moment that I love seeing, because it reminds you, no matter how brilliant, how intellectual, there's this peek at her personality that you get to see, her at play and her human spirit and all the ways it resonated with us all.
We're oftentimes not allowed to even define things as what they are, right? Which is the same thing that other people suffer from. They get labels… So anything to at all help us process sad feelings, I think, is incredibly important. But the funny thing about that book was I was sitting here and a guy came in and he was like, "How did you get this book?" It was signed by her. He was like, "This is my aunt. How did you get this book?" He was floored. That's the only other copy I've ever had. He has it. So, it's y'all's copy and his copy, and he was like, "This is my aunt." He started calling all his family. He actually ended up working at NBC, so he did an article on the store about the fact that he found that book. So something drew me to it, and he had never seen it before. It was almost like it chose me because it wanted to be in the space and needed to reconnect. That happens more often than I can say.
SAINT HERON COMMUNITY LIBRARY CREDITS:
Founder & Creative Director: Solange Knowles
Editor & Writer: Shantel Aurora
Project Manager: Diane "Shabazz" Varnie
Operations Manager: Chris Kauffman
Graphic Designer: Kai Jenrette
Web Designer: Angela A. Asemota
Web Development: Studio Otto
AZUREST BLUE: The Life and Legacy of Amaza Lee Meredith
Saint Heron
Saint Heron
AZUREST BLUE: The Life and Legacy of Amaza Lee Meredith
Saint Heron
Saint Heron
AZUREST BLUE: The Life and Legacy of Amaza Lee Meredith
Saint Heron
Saint Heron
AZUREST BLUE: The Life and Legacy of Amaza Lee Meredith
Saint Heron
Saint Heron
A Daughter's Geography
Ntozake Shange
Ntozake Shange
American Negro Art
Cedric Dover
Cedric Dover
An Ordinary Woman
Lucille Clifton
Lucille Clifton
Art at the Edge, Houston Cownwill
Susan Krane
Susan Krane
Between the Lines
Benny Andrews
Benny Andrews
Black Artists on Art Vol. 1
Ruth G. Waddy
Ruth G. Waddy
Black Artists on Art Vol. 2
Ruth G. Waddy
Ruth G. Waddy
Black Dance
Edward Thorpe
Edward Thorpe
Black Gods of the Metropolis
Arthur Huff Fauset
Arthur Huff Fauset
Black Like Me
Fred Wilson
Fred Wilson
Black Woman Sorrow
Rosa Bogar
Rosa Bogar
Bloodchild and Other Stories
Octavia E. Butler
Octavia E. Butler
Cap Wigington: An Architectural Legacy in Ice and Stone
David Vassar Taylor & Paul Clifford Larson
David Vassar Taylor & Paul Clifford Larson
Catgut - The Opera
Rhea Dillon
Rhea Dillon
Chase-Riboud
Barbara Chase-Riboud
Barbara Chase-Riboud
Children Coming Home
Gwendolyn Brooks
Gwendolyn Brooks
Civil Wars
June Jordan
June Jordan
Clarion Issue I
Kandis Williams & 52 Walker
Kandis Williams & 52 Walker
Clay's Ark
Octavia Butler
Octavia Butler
Coal
Audre Lorde
Audre Lorde
Dark Waters: Vol. 3 No. 1
Colleen J. McElroy (Editor)
Colleen J. McElroy (Editor)
Dimensions Of Black
Jehanne Teilhet-Fisk
Jehanne Teilhet-Fisk
Earthquakes and Sun Rise Missions: Poetry and Essays of Black Renewal
Haki R Mahubuti
Haki R Mahubuti
Eldorado Ballroom 2023 Vol. 1
Saint Heron Press
Saint Heron Press
Embryo
Quincy Troupe
Quincy Troupe
Fifth Sunday
Rita Dove
Rita Dove
Flying Piranha
Ted Joans and Joyce Mansour
Ted Joans and Joyce Mansour
Forty Years of Printmaking: A Retrospective, 1948-1988
Warrington Colescott
Warrington Colescott
Gary Simmons: Ghost House
Gary Simmons, Avery F. Gordon & Louis Grachos
Gary Simmons, Avery F. Gordon & Louis Grachos
In Our Terribleness
Imamu Amiri Baraka & Fundi
Imamu Amiri Baraka & Fundi
Judith Jamison: Aspects of a Dancer
Olga Maynard
Olga Maynard
Julian Abele: Architect and the Beaux Arts
Dreck Spurlock Wilson
Dreck Spurlock Wilson
Just Us
Claudia Rankine
Claudia Rankine
KICK: Black, Gay & Fierce Urban Culture
Miscellaneous
Miscellaneous
LA TETE
Julianna Free
Julianna Free
Left of Karl Marx
Carol Boyce Davies
Carol Boyce Davies
Lumumba ou l'Afrique frustrée
Luiz Lopez Alvarez
Luiz Lopez Alvarez
Mad at Miles: A Black Woman's Guide to Truth
Pearl Cleage
Pearl Cleage
Mad Dog Black Lady
Wanda Coleman
Wanda Coleman
Madam Zenobia's Space Age Lucky Eleven Dream and Astrology Book
Madam Zenobia
Madam Zenobia
Maren Hassinger, 1972-1991
Maren Hassinger
Maren Hassinger
Meteor In A Black Hat
Bob Thompson
Bob Thompson
Michael in Black
Nicole Miller
Nicole Miller
My One Good Nerve
Ruby Dee
Ruby Dee
Native in a Strange Land
Wanda Coleman
Wanda Coleman
No Matter Where You Travel, You Still Be Black
Houston A. Baker
Houston A. Baker
No Pain Like This Body
Harold Sonny Ladoo
Harold Sonny Ladoo
Of Tulips and Shadows
Dewey Crumpler
Dewey Crumpler
Otán Iyebiyé: Las Piedras Preciosas
Lydia Cabrera
Lydia Cabrera
Poems From Prison
Etheridge Knight
Etheridge Knight
Public and Personal
Martin Puryear
Martin Puryear
Adrian Piper: Reflections 1967-1987
Adrian Piper
Adrian Piper
Revolution In Guinea: An African People's Struggle
Colleen J. McElroy
Colleen J. McElroy
Shakespeare in Harlem
Langston Hughes
Langston Hughes
Spell #7
Ntozake Shange
Ntozake Shange
The Architectural Legacy of Wallace A. Rayfield: Pioneer Black Architect of Birmingham, Alabama
Allen R. Durough (Author)
Allen R. Durough (Author)
The Art of Henry O. Tanner
Henry Ossawa Tanner
Henry Ossawa Tanner
The Black Unicorn
Audre Lorde
Audre Lorde
The Clearing and Beyond
May Miller
May Miller
The Friendliest Black Artist in America
William Pope.L
William Pope.L
The Meeting Point
Austin Clarke
Austin Clarke
The Soft Voice of the Serpent
Nadine Gordimer
Nadine Gordimer
The Theme is Blackness
Ed Bullins
Ed Bullins
The Voices of Negritude
Julio Finn
Julio Finn
Trophy Room
William Pope.L
William Pope.L
Terms
The Saint Heron Digital Archive Library is home to primarily out-of-print, rare, and first-edition books.
Please handle all titles with care.
The library is free of charge and operates on an honor-based borrowing system through online registration. It is open exclusively to U.S.-based residents. Each borrower may reserve one book per person, with requests fulfilled on a first-come, first-served basis.
Books will be shipped directly to borrowers with complimentary shipping and return postage, ensuring the library remains free to readers.
All borrowed books must be returned within 45 days of check-out. Lost or damaged books will be charged market value to the borrower with the credit card information stored on file. Books not renewed (if applicable) or returned to the Saint Heron Community Library following three reminder notices, nor explanation, will be deemed lost and will be subject to charge.